Furnace needs to be replaced, asap... heat pump?

Go figure… I went to install a whole house humidifier today and noticed the heat exchanger on our furnace is cracked…

Looks like were gunna have to replace our old Trane sooner than later aka now.

We are in NY & regularly see below freezing and below 0f temps, so furnace is necessary and natural gas (in our area) is really cheap, especially when compared to electric.

Luckily my other half works for a HVAC/pluming/electrical contractor supply house in the high end pluming showroom.

They mostly stock IPC brands & she can get a new furnace near cost. Looking at the G9CMN https://www.heil-hvac.com/en/us/products/gas-furnaces/ion-98-variable-speed-modulating-gas-furnace/

We do not have central AC now only a portable AC. So It looks like we may end up with a heat pump addon next year…

They are still working out the final details but it appears:
As part of the Inflation Reduction Act next year there will be some insane rebates on heat pumps (and water heaters) up to 100% the total cost.

Up to $8,000 for heat pump space heating/cooling, $800 stoves, $800 clothes dryer $4,000 electric service panel, $2500 electrical wiring, $1,600 insulation and air sealing.
Rebates are caped at $14,000 per household depending on income.

Additional tax credits of up to $2,000 for heat pumps.
ON TOP of a 30% credit for just about everything related to an energy improvement.

Looking for suggestions…

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We recently moved from OH to PA and are in climate zone 6 now which is similar to some of NY. Primary heat is propane which is really expensive compared to natural gas that we did have. I’m also looking at doing a heat pump but probably a hybrid system with heat pump for primary and propane as secondary. Looking at Goodman.

Do you have information on the rebates and tax credits? I haven’t found anything clear and those are some very enticing numbers that would solidify my decision.

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The numbers I posted were based off some early info.

Her company just received a more detailed, updated FAQ sheet late yesterday.
The rebates/incentives are set to start in the the 2nd half of 2023 but states have the option to go retroactive. It’s broken down into multiple parts. I’m going to start a new thread for everything related.
Energy Rebates, Tax Credits, Incentives, discussion

Natural gas sure is cheap when compared to other sources, especially propane and oil.
If that were the case as in yours a primary heat pump would look much more appealing.

IMO, this electrification of everything fad is not going to go well in the long run.
Aside from the cost of natural gas being so much cheaper then electric, our generator can power a furnace but not a heat pump. Which I’m imagining becoming increasingly more important when the grid starts becoming overloaded, in addition to normal outages.
Having multiple generations of family (on both sides) having worked in the gas industry adds a little bias…

A lot of this is quite new to me so I’m trying to crunch as much information as I can as quick as possible, while trying to weed out the marketing and political bias of it all. Planning the best system for us while trying to figure out what products and our household ‘might’ qualify for to maximize savings, is not an easy task…

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Southern California Gas prices over the last year:

Modern mini splits with inverter technology have such a gentle surge when starting the compressor, I don’t see why a proper sized genset would have a problem with that.

Why do you think the grid is about to get overloaded ?
I hear that argument mainly from the oil/gas industry

With my larger than usual solar system, with enough batteries and my EV’s in case of emergency being able to provide electricity as well, I aim to be able to comfortably be able to go through a possible power outage and still have most of my home functional, while also trying to use a minimum of fossil fuels possible. I do have a 7kW diesel genset if things go really wrong.

But getting better and cheaper every year instead of using the systems that have been considered for the last 20+ years.

There is hope :wink:

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This particular problem is interesting to me, because this morning I purchased a thing called an EasyStart from a company called Micro Air. It is called a “soft start” device because it doesn’t help a hard-starting compressor/motor (which a hard-start device would help with). This device slowly ramps up the power to the compressor/motor to avoid the sudden inrush current those devices often demand at startup, but don’t require to continually run.

I have yet to receive it or install it, but I think it should/could help with my heat pump compressor longevity by easing the sudden jolt of the compressor starting, in addition to making the load a little bit easier on my electrical panel; hopefully lower spikes!

I saw one video where a small heat pump had ~74A LRA (locked-rotor amperage), but with the EasyStart installed, it was down to ~26A! The RLA (running load amps) was a constant 6A with/without the EasyStart.


We are looking into dual fuel inverter systems, but I don’t want to go with a sole heat pump system.
That would lighten the load if we need to use our (portable) generator.
Our Natural gas costs are a lot lower here even after recent rate increases. Electricity on the other hand is going up another 31-34% early next year.

The issue with the grid is more of a localized issue with the substations here. Capacity not increased despite a massive amount of development. We have been somewhat fortunate here, but neighboring towns have been experiencing more frequent and longer lasting brownouts, we are very low on the list for upgrades. We wont even get smart meters until late 2025.
Our area is far behind the time in regards to energy efficiency, especially new builds.
Most suppliers/distributors don’t even bother stocking the more efficient products as there is such a low demand.

I’m familiar with basic soft start capacitors but that is very interesting and different product @Edison517

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If it was in NY, I would suggest a dual fuel setup… heatpump with a 90%+ NG furnace. A communicating system would be cool, but one running on a smart thermostat with geofencing and scheduling will help a ton.

obscuredtrip… We put in a new Carrier modulating forced hot air… 98.5 efficiency… 3 years ago… Love the furnace and new air conditioner… But the trying to talk to the company and installers after is far from desirable. Had to have a new thermostat put in. 3 year old stat would not work with the new Wifi 6 mesh web. $800… for new one, under warranty if you want to pay the service call to have them put it in. No return calls or up front estimates. Would not do it again… Very quite and efficient. Propane…

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I think that is one of the furnaces we are looking at but with the heat pump instead of a standard AC.
Not really familiar with them but the infinity/ion features do seem nice and I’m really leaning towards that.

They quoted her a insanely low impossible to pass up price for a slightly lower non Infinity/Ion model with a VSM but only 2stage heat. Waiting to see is she can get the same kind of deal on the Infinity/Ion.

Carrier, & all the ICP brands are all the same, with Carrier having it’s own distribution network and more focused on the commercial side (small buildings up to datacenters and skyscrapers).
So it’s good to hear your happy with the unit itself.

Sounds like your issue is more with your HVAC contractors labor pricing.
The MFG warranty normally doesn’t cover labor but might if it’s installed by an elite dealer. It’s up to the installer to make a happy customer.
Warranty claims for parts are handled at the distributor level. Contractor brings defective part to distributor, distributor confirms it’s defective and swaps it out if it’s a no hassle warranty. Standard warranty distributor confirms defective and gets RMA from MFG.

Distributors will rarely sell direct to customer in some areas/states it’s illegal or prohibited by their insurance, NY is one of those states. Too many people blowing up themselves, house family and neighborhood. Not to mention issues with CO & freon.
Thermostats, filters the the like being the only exception.

Your thermostat should work with your mesh system. Your mesh system should have somewhere in the GUI that you can assign the mac address directly to an access point.

The infinity system is made by carrier, there units are truly variable speeds, the compressor may run at 29% (25-100%) and the indoor air handler might be at 57%. They do have proprietary thermostats and keep saying they are going to add geofencing. “Infinity” also starting making some single stage regular AC systems… Think this are currently called “infinity 16.” The number is also the SEER (higher the more efficient) . The variable speed infinity ones are in the 24, 26 range.

Some of the hvac systems that has a communicating bus between the outdoor and indoor units and are called “variable speed” but might have 5 speeds that it switches between. Almost all of the current day HVAC units are going to have a Copeland scroll compressor in it other than train/ American standard. The actual infinity control system is a very good one, it has static pressure sensors and air flow sensors. 10 year warranty is all they got though on the compressors.

Right Infinity is made by Carrier. Ion is the same as Infinity and also made by Carrier.
Similar to how Wiser Energy is the same as Sense with only a slight cosmetic difference.

Part of the problem is that our duct work is very oversized for our house. We need more blower capacity than BTU’s. A two stage furnace with the blower size we need may never come out of the 1st/low stage.
Now when we factor in a heat pump one rated for the furnace would likely be overkill. So do we downsize the heat pump, go with a VS one or both? I’m thinking this is where a VS HP would really shine.
VS HP’s are only available in the Ion/Infinity line so if we go that route we would obviously go with an Ion furnace.

I guess at this point we’re really trying to justify the additional expense as it’s unlikely she will get the same type of discount.

I’m not saying that over sizing ductwork is possible. Normally it wont have any negative affect since their is less restriction. Normally it’s actually a very good thing to have… 400cfm per ton is kind of the min. (3ton= min 1200)

Only negative issue that you could have is balancing … meaning the supply ducts at the beginning are letting out too much air. Fix for this is dampers or… even better… making zones!

Depending on your cost per KWH vs per MFC dual fuel might be the most cost effective/ eff. No matter the COP of the heatpumps… at one point a heat strip kicks in (+10Kw) and for certain temps you’ll have the compressor running 2kw and then the blower running .5kw then at a certain temp your on heat strips only.

Heatpump only >105
Heatpump with strip >130
Strip> 120
Gas funrance >145

In dual fuel with 1 stage HP you would have using 2500 watts and have ~90-105 degrees heat coming out of the vents. Then when the COP is less (determined from outside temp)… it would switch to gas with 500w blower + natural gas with 135-145deg air heating the house. Some areas duel fuel is called hybrid heatpumps.

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It seems a bit backwards and I didn’t quite get it at first either. The reasoning is that oversized duct work reduces the static pressure, the furnace takes static pressure into account to control the Variable speed motor, thus the low static pressure would cause issues. The engineers designed them for the higher static pressures of newer homes and zoned systems.

Balancing to increase static pressure would be one way to overcome this and I would love to create zones to control the temp room to room, no matter what we do it would take a bit of work and cost.

1950’s hillside ranch house, main trunk runs down the center between the two levels.
Upstairs is primarily baseboard diffuser registers of various very odd sizes, downstairs mostly standard registers.
Some vents are built into the main trunk, while others are branched. Some supply both levels.
The only inline dampers are on the longest runs where we need the most heat and warmth.

Defiantly something I’d like to do down the road.

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Most the older duct work can easily be added dampers… sounds like someone will have to cut some drywall out. I got the feeling you are pretty much set on the infinity/ion. The argument is always… “you’ll never get your money back out of it.” Which is true… but also I’ve never heard any say they regret buying the infinity system.

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Adding onto my comment about the EasyStart device I mentioned.
I installed it yesterday, and now (unsuprisingly), Sense no longer recognizes my heat pump lol. I should have figured that might happen since it’s changing the “on” signature.

I’m debating whether I should delete my “Heat Pump” or not…I’m not super concerned if I lose a lot of back data…might be interesting to see if Sense finds it again any quicker.

The version I bought has bluetooth built in, mostly for troubleshooting with the company if a problem occurs, but it does have a status screen that tells you some basic statistics:

I wish it would keep a log of LRA amps over time, but I wanna say I saw my LRA at ~60A, and now the app is telling me it’s 16A! I can also clearly see on the Meter view in Sense how there isn’t a huge power spike when the compressor kicks in (the device is clearly working as advertised).

The yellow circle is before the device was installed, the green circle is after it was installed:

Sorry to hijack the thread!


Edison57… Would like to put one of these on my ‘heat pump hot water heater’… I run it mostly on my solar power. When it calls for heat it pulls my second inverter in for the draw down is lower then 60 percent on the first. So the second comes in. Not sure the inrush current is, But I can put a meter on it. Priorities… Like to have you keep me up to date on the EasyStart… You can PM if you want… Later…Gerry

I know not all the newer smart thermostats work with with all the features of some of the higher end variable speed units. They are certainly getting better but be sure to double check if yours will.