What's new in v22: Philips Hue

@kinney.dan,
You should learn a little bit more about machine learning training. The “training” you describe is not particularly useful for machine learning. Data scientists want to see whether the actual device at the outlet or socket is on or off (ground truth) at every sample point (with Sense, every microsecond). Better yet, add in a second piece of data, the rough power that the device is consuming. The on/off data can be offset in time by a second or so, since the machine learning network will have some “short-term memory” built into it.

The good news is that there are lots of readily network accessible sources of power usage ground truth data to feed machine learning. Hue is one good example. Other sources include smart thermostats (Ecobee, Nest), smart plugs (provide power information as well), smart chargers for/in EVs, smart appliances, etc. And, not every device needs to report in for Sense to improve with this additional supervision / feedback. Other devices are likely to be better defined if Sense more accurately pegs devices with ground truth input. So ground truth feedback should be good for everybody. The bad news it that you need a machine to provide training input, not yourself.

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Good question. And no, they do not charge at the same time typically, because usually I use the same charger for both of them and it only has one plug!

This is a point well taken. I don’t happen to have that much lighting going on, but my case is not everyone’s case!

I can highly recommend the Coursera course on machine learning. It’s taught by a Stanford Prof. If you remember enough from algebra, you’ll do OK. If you remember linear algebra, you’ll do great. If you remember calculus, you make the rest of the class look bad; pretend you don’t remember.

But you’ll learn a ton that will put this in context.

Yes, the Coursera series on Machine Learning by Andrew Ng is really cool… Gives hands on insight into some of magic of machine learning plus how it can go off the rails (overfitting, underfitting, drift, wrong neural network structure)

Ryan is the prioritized list of next integrations a secret? Which? and when can we expect more? Every IoT device is theoretically “seeable” using this approach, correct? With my single vote I’d recommend high-draw devices like pool pumps (Pentair app), HVAC (via NEST or other theomstats), EVs (like my I3 that know exactly when they are on/off via BMWConnected app).

Got a big patch update (iOS v22.1, Android v22.2).

This release greatly improves the syncing between Sense and Hue. Now, as you change your Hue setup (add new lights, make new rooms, move lights between rooms, etc) Sense will better detect those changes. In addition, you will now be able disconnect Hue from your Sense monitor (under Settings > My Home > Connected Devices).

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I just enabled the hue bridge, and I was wondering if the base rate usage is included in the daily/monthly/yearly cost. What I mean by this is that each bulb draws about 0.5 watts to maintain connectivity with the bridge. This seems like a small amount, but it is continuous. For example. 10 hue bulbs drawing 150 watts for 1 hour per day is 0.15 KWh per day, but the same bulbs drawing 0.5 WH per hour for 24 hours per day is 0.12 KWh per day. This means the bulbs resting off use almost as much power as if they were on for 1 hour per day. Is this usage accounted for, or just ignored?

Will Sense work with the Phillips Hue plugs?

Sense is designed to only integrate with Hue bulbs at this time. In addition, unlike the Kasa and Wemo plugs we’re integrated with, Hue plugs do not report energy consumption. Thus, they wouldn’t provide much positive benefit to Sense, outside of control.

Wouldn’t they also provide ground truth?

@scorp508,
There are differing degrees of ground truth for something like Sense, degrees that vary in temporal and amplitude resolution. My educated guess on “ground truth” capabilities of various devices, from greatest resolution to poorest…

image

The review of the Hue Plug below puts it in the lowest category - low temporal resolution (bluetooth to WiFi), with only 1 BIT (on/off) data resolution. The Hue integration with the bulbs is in the same category, but it has 2 Byte amplitude resolution due to the power calculations done in the hub for every bulb (on/off/brightness level is converted to power usage for each bulb by the hub).

“The Hue Smart Plug is also short on features such as energy monitoring or a usage history log.”

Agreed.

One topic that has come up over and over from end users is more integration with home automation and other connected devices, which your chart partially outlines. ecoboo was one by providing when HVAC systems were on/off, the smart plug world is another where on/off and sometimes usage may be reported, and then there’s the endless array of Z-Wave/Zigbee styles of integrations which can help tell you if a device on the other end of those kinds of switches/plugs are on/off and maybe their usage.

The hue plugs seem to completely fall within this realm of on/off status potentially being useful. I was simply surprised to see it not mentioned at all as a possible useful piece of information. Are they all perfect or equal in quality of data? Certainly not, but it’s better than zero in some cases even if it’s simply an end user enlightenment.

People have to want to use a product. The more integrations there are the sexier it is. The overall opportunity of data gathered may increase if you can draw consumers in with some integration which itself may not be of high value to Sense but is of interest/desire to the consumer.

@scorp508,
I agree that integrations improve the value and stickiness of the Sense product. But If I’m Sense, with limited resources, and confronted by a smart home universe that has many fragmented “platforms” each with their own standards, I would have to prioritize in some way, A typical way to prioritize would be by value vs. effort to integrate. From a value perspective, I would see it this way.

  • Machine Learning Training - most valuable, but requires high temporal and amplitude resolution (smartplugs)
  • Supplementing Sense UI - valuable for end customers since it adds additional power information, but doesn’t require quite as much temporal resolution (smartplugs, Hue lights)
  • Diagnostic Guidance - helps Sense quantify whether models are working or not, plus gives guidance on why. Ecobee fits into this category since it only supplies runtimes for every 5 min interval - very low temporal resolution.

I think integration cost follows the same ranking as value - the highest value Machine Learning Training integrations are also the most expensive to integrate since they require realtime sampling of smart plugs. Some what easier to add just the data to the UI/history since it doesn’t require the same temporal resolution, but does still need to represent power, not just on/off to fit the UI. Diagnostic Guidance is the easiest - the data just needs to be retrieved and used back at the Sense mothership.

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That is all well and good and not lost on me. I deal with similar if not identical decisions with software development day to day. I completely appreciate the horse trading which has to happen and the frustration of having to kick a can down the road due to lack of resourcing or higher if not slightly more boring priorities winning out.

However, as a consumer of the product I still want to voice my opinion on things I’d like to see considered/executed. I want Sense to be amazing. I want more reasons to champion it to friends and family. They have my $299 so there’s not much more to get from our household unless we go solar in the future or new HW is released which inspires me to upgrade, but I’m still willing to provide context around why I think some things may help pull more families in.

Anyway… getting off track here. I like the idea of Hue switches being added if not anything more than for some level of ground truth. :beers:

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You do yourself an injustice here. Beyond the data gold that Sense is getting, you are also contributing to the forum!

Likewise, staying on track, I want Sense to be as simple as possible and leave all the me$$y stuff to the likes of Apple & Google who can afford to do the real integration like HomeKit. Meaning: they should integrate Sense tech on some deep level. Hello!

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@scorp508,
I gotta say I really appreciate your community contributions as well… Not trying to scotch your suggestions and requests. Keep em’ coming. :cocktail: :cocktail:

We’re definitely on the same page here. Kevin nailed the challenges well and you obviously understand them, so I don’t need to go down that road. But one immediate UI complication with non-reporting plugs: how do we show them? If they can be controlled, then a controllable bubble would be useful, but that’s tough if we can’t isolate the wattage directly. In any case, it’s something to consider and I’ll pass along to the team.

In addition, I haven’t personally used a Hue plug, but I’m not really seeing a benefit to them over something like an HS110.