I believe modern “state of the art” HVAC’s and other devices that benefit from highly efficient brushless DC motors will always present a difficult challenge for SENSE to identify reliably. My HVAC system will very fan and compressor speeds to optimize comfort and efficiency. This behavior causes many erroneous SENSE device identification errors. MY HVAC loads are not a simple on or off, but very over time depending on demand.
IMHO: Industry should standardized ECM (DC Electronically Commutated Motor) controllers to provide IOT energy monitoring. MY HVAC system provides energy information now, but that data is embedded into a rather nice GUI.
I totally agree, and I would also extend that thought to other “modern” devices like refrigerators and well pumps (which does have sophisticated monitoring, but no connection) like mine.
An energy monitoring system limited to on/off transitions isn’t viable even in today’s systems, and becomes less viable all the time.
My water well pump is variable speed, with a constant pressure controller that presents no difficulty to Sense at all. Its one thing Sense never confuses with anything else. Also, not all state of the art variable speed heat pumps use dc motors. Its a bit debatable whether or not you need infinitely variable speeds for an HVAC, and a dozen speeds are probably quite adequate for residential purposes. Its my impression that the difficulty for Sense lies in the number of different devices involved in one HVAC system - various compressors, fans, pumps, and other auxiliary devices such as humidifiers, dehumidifiers and so on. Some of them are detectable separately, others are just motors that are very similar to each other and therefore difficult for Sense to distinguish.
My (and many other folks) have variable speed constant pressure pump that are three phase AC and vary over a very wide range while running. It maintains pressure within two PSI regardless of consumption. Since this feeds both my geothermal system and my household uses, the frequency changes are quite large. Sense not only can’t detect this, but Sense engineering tells me that the “noise” this puts on the power lines makes it impossible for Sense to reliably detect most of my other devices too. I have around 174 distinct devices and after two years Sense has managed to detect about a dozen, and even those not accurately/reliably.
There are so many possible configurations of geothermal HVAC that it is difficult to discuss it all intelligently in these short notes, but the fundamental problem is that Sense is a flawed device trying to do pattern recognition on electrical systems that are very different from each other and all of them complicated. I am not sure its even really possible for Sense to achieve what it would like to achieve due to the complexity involved. Having a Sense-like device on each breaker makes more sense in some ways, at least at present state-of-the-art. Leviton has a new system that attempts something like this. I have never had Sense be able to detect more than 50% of my usage, and it misses dozens of devices of which it does not know the pattern.
If you have two 120 single breakers in the same side of the panel then each one is drawing from a different leg.
If you have two 240 breakers anywhere in the panel, same side or opposite then they are both drawing from both legs.
Another person said to move or change it but that won’t work. All 240 breakers draw from both legs.
They only way you could possibly trick Sense into recognizing them differently is to take the wires in one of those 240 breakers and switch them around. Just swap the wires in one of them. That will might make enough difference for sense to see as it could place a slightly different load in the other leg.
For instance, my air handler is 240. But the transformer for HVAC controls is connected 120 so there is a slightly higher draw on the leg the transformer is on.
Most of the time, 240 devices use half the load from each 120 leg and mine would too if the transformer was fed 240
Most system don’t have neutral like yours, 24v transformer primary is 240v in that case. 3-wire + ground is usual for dryer and oven/range but not for a air handler.
I thought I was special because my Mitsubishi ducted mini split - installed for second floor heating and cooling - was ID’d by Sense after only a month, whereas my 1st floor heat pump runs 3 minisplits and has never broken out of “Other”. the 2nd floor zone is now retreated to Other. frustrating!! i’ve read every post I could find in the forum and from what I gather, the types of motors in these heat pumps aren’t descernable by Sense and probably never will be. Has anyone installed (or considered installing) the Lutron panels and beakers so that everything is being monitored at distribution instead of reverse engineering the draw after the fact? that seems to be a more sound approach to the problem, no?
Never heard of Lutron, but looking at them I’d certainly investigate if I’m ever crazy enough to build again. As I read their marketing, Lutron monitors (and controls) at the circuit level. So, if your minisplits are on separate circuits, you could monitor each one. If they are lumped on one circuit, you’d get one reading for all. Still much better than “other”.
I keep hoping (and lobbying) that Sense or a partner would bring out a 240v “wire in” sensor, like the HS110 but not using outlets/plugs and rated for 240v here in the US. Basically, it would be a minor re-packaging of the European HS device…plus approvals. That would allow a simple insert of the sensor for each 240 v device you wanted to monitor, a bit costly (and NOT what Sense marketing promised), but would reduce the dreaded other.
We use a welserver http://www.welserver.com), which does a great job of monitoring circuits. Unlike Sense, which is supposed to be able to detect devices (but doesn’t for many of us and for many types of devices…particularly modern ones), welserver monitors circuits. The reason I bought Sense was to get down another level to individual consumers on circuits…apparently that works for some, but following these threads clearly it doesn’t for all.
If you don’t have solar, then adding a second set of Flex Sensors (Sense CTs) might be a better choice for circuits monitoring of those heat pumps / mini splits, than a whole new panel. More info here:
I do have solar, monitored by bot Sense and my welserver…and they agree pretty closely And, one more 240 v circuit wouldn’t help much, with more than a dozen 240v circuits in my all electric (geothermal heating/cooling) home. Since Sense can’t detect such devices very well, what’s needed is a solution that connects to many such devices.
Sorry @andy ! I know your situation and understand that DCM wouldn’t work for you. But it might be a good option for @jim5.
ps: I don’t know how much or a DIYer you are, but the Shelly EM and SenseLink is essentially the a 240V wired smartplug. Would be nice to see something like this productized.
for the record, I would not expect for Sense or Lutron to be able to monitor an individual mini split unit since these are coupled
to the exterior units via low voltage - but yes, each heat pump (the outdoor unit) is on its own AC disconnect (by code) so naturally you would expect for these to be ‘Sensed’. I’ve got solar and it’s nice to be able to monitor it with such great detail. but I find it extraordinarily difficult to understand why, if Sense can’t address this quite large share of their target market, they don’t provide a hybrid solution of physical senors that would monitor any isolated circuits, and then subtract and recalculate the loads so that it could do a better job of what’s left. yes, it’s hard, but it’s not as much of a moon shot as what is being attempted today.
Just a clarification so people don’t go down a rabbit hole trying to find a product that may not exist.
Lutron - makes light switches and control systems for lighting / shading etc… with several different product lines (Caseta, RadioRA, HomeWorksQS etc…) Via a third party plugin that another community member built, it is possible in some circumstances to bring Lutron data into Sense by emulating smart plugs.
Leviton makes a smart load center (breaker panel) that has the ability to monitor at a per circuit breaker level when smart circuit breakers are installed. It does look like you can trip a breaker remotely, but I would assume for safety reasons, you can’t reset them remotely.
I think one or two members have installed these smart load centers and may be able to share more info.
I’d never heard of Shelly until seeing it in your thread below. At first glance, it looks EXACTLY like what I’ve been seeking, except that Sense doesn’t seem to have an interface to it. WHY NOT?
HUGE thanks, and I will definitely do some further investigation.
You’re welcome. I haven’t dabbled with SenseLink yet because it requires some kind of hub, and I haven’t had the time to put into setting that up, though I do have two Intel NUCs that I’m converting to Linux for that kind of stuff. Someday…
If your mini-splits are like mine, the inside unit operates on its own power and the outside on its own power. The control between them is indeed low voltage, but that doesn’t really matter. Since Sense has the ability to combine detected devices, I’d think you could use that to create one “device” out of the two components, if only you could get them detected in the first place.
I just saw the reference to Shelly smart relays with monitoring, looks like a possible solution, and their interface is thru WIFI. Haven’t located the API yet (also has a webserver http), but I’d think the smart engineers at Sense could develop an interface to this in their sleep. That would provide a solution for the hundreds (thousands) of Sense customers who have 240v devices that Sense is unable to detect and/or monitor accurately.
The Shelly 1PM is only $17 on Amazon and it gets very good marks (except for their manual…which I agree is awful).