Multiple unfound devices in home after 6 months

These are the devices we own that are yet to be detected by the Sense:

Pool pump
Irrigation pump
LG Refrigerator LMXS0776S
GE Oven PT7800SH8SS - this is a double microwave/oven powered off same circuit, the microwave has been detected but the oven still has not.
GE Range Hood JVW5361SJ1SS
Frigidaire Induction Cooktop FGIC3666TBB
Direct Drive 1042V004 Garage Door Opener

As of right now there are 2 devices that Sense has found which I cannot link to anything in my house:
Heat 5 - Only been “on” 5 times in last 4 months for less than 10 minutes total
Light 1 - Was on often back in March but rarely since then and not since July 8. It also has varying wattage usage so I doubt it’s actually a light (or even just one light)

Hi @chris.angeline.gross - other’s may chime in here, but off a glance (and some quick googling) it looks like you a relatively high-end refrigerator. We’re working on writing some content on our end that looks at some of the things Sense will and won’t detect (in most cases). I’d be curious to know if your Pool Pump and Irrigation Pump are single-speed OR variable-speed.

After a brief search, I found that this refrigerator uses LG’s Linear Compressor, which is probably why Sense hasn’t detected it yet (it’s hard for Sense to detect variable-speed motors because of the inconsistency of the consumption pattern, among other reasons.) I would recommend using the smart plug integration if you want to see your refrigerators consumption in the app.

“LG’s linear compressor is a type of digital inverter compressor. Your typical refrigerator has a “single-speed compressor” that turns on and off as needed. Digital inverter compressors act more like car accelerators: they have variable speed motors and run constantly at a lower power level rather than turning on to 100% power and then back off again. This saves a lot of energy and reduces wear and tear on the compressor as well.”

Boy, you are doing really well. Of the 178 electric devices in our home, Sense has detected about 13, and not all those consistently.

I can’t say it’s done a great job with the ones it’s detected for us as well. Along with not detecting anything we have plugged into a UPS, which is a lot of electronics, it also seems get slightly confused by our 2 AC units.

But it detected the baby bottle warmer no problem! :rofl:

The pumps are both single speed. I know from turning off the pool pump that it uses around 1500 watts. It, along with a Jandy salt chlorinator and a solar control (both also not detected), are connected to an old mechanical timer. The irrigation pump is much older. It’s being controlled by a Rachio controller (not detected yet).

I also didn’t mention but every device connected to either a CyberPower or APC UPS are not being detected (Eero devices, TVs, mac mini, game consoles, etc - most of our high priced electronics are connected to one of those two brands). I did see other posts regarding this particular issue but it’s not my main concern right now since none of those draw the kind of power I am concerned about at the moment.

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My major problem is a constant pressure, variable speed, deep well pump that feeds our geothermal system and provides domestic water. Sense engineering says not only is it variable speed (which they have problems with to start), but also “very noisy”, obscuring detection of most of the rest of our all electric/geothermal/solar home.

Sense marketing REALLY should have warned about such places being way out of their scope. I’d not have wasted all that time and money.

all electric/geothermal/solar home

I want to see your setup now :sweat_smile:

Just making an observation … you post a lot in the community (731 times) and yet you made the statement that it’s wasting your time. If installing it was wasting that much of your time, what keeps you coming back here voluntarily?

Now, on the first part of what I quoted, I’ve also talked a lot about how the Sense marketing team has a tough challenge. I’ve been in startups and I know it’s not easy and a lot of times you stretch the truth, embellish etc. As a consumer we have reviews, we have corporate history, we have investment history and the list goes on. Ultimately, it’s up to us to do the research and decide if something is right for us especially if you feel it’s an expensive purchase.

Before I purchased Sense I saw the reviews, but I also had a Generac monitor that was 1000x worse. I decided to go with Sense because I intimately know the technology behind it, I understand it’s limitations (based on my career in tech) and I decided it would be something that I would commit to the long haul on.

It appears that you got the monitor some 4-5 years ago, so you were really early in. Unfortunately, AI relies on data and when you just start a company, you don’t have much of that. In Sense’s case, we provide them the data to make the product better, just by using electricity. Since the company is still newish (they got their first real money less that 5 years ago), there’s a lot they just haven’t got enough data for yet. There’s noise issues that they haven’t sorted out (in AI this is called dirty data), but eventually I think it will get there.

Here’s an analogy. There’s millions of Tesla’s out there and they are the biggest experiment, using a purchased product, that we’ll likely see in our lifetime. No one would accept a Porsche with the poor workmanship and fit/finish that Tesla put out on a $110k model S. But people bought into the vision and they still continue to fork out stupid amounts of money (10k for autopilot) for something that they essentially developed by driving down the road. Tesla and Sense are similar in that we purchased something (we in a general sense, because I would never buy a Tesla) and they use our consumption of the product to develop a better product through the use of data gathering, AI/ML/DL.

Sense will get better, but we have to remember that if we discourage people from purchasing a Sense, if we don’t educate people on why Sense needs more data, then we will only do harm to our own investment. I’m not advocating the Sense is perfect by any means. I’m not advocating that we don’t criticize, because I have. I think their biggest issue is marketing, as I’ve said in other posts. I think education about how it works and how to maximize your expectations is needed.

I have just a handful of discovered devices. I think I got 3 new ones yesterday so I’m up to 8ish natively discovered. It’s like Christmas every time I see the little Sense icon. For me, Sense is just another tool in my home automation arsenal. I purchased Sense, in part, because of the integrations and the ability for me to dissect the data on my own.

I guess what I’m getting at is, I don’t think you’re out of their scope. Furthermore, I think if they told everyone on the day of release the truth, almost everyone would have been out of their scope. Elon didn’t tell people his cars came with crazy panel gaps, bumpers that fell off when it rained, windshields that leaked, etc etc. Would he have ever sold any, I think not.

I have faith that the more people who use Sense, the more you, me and every Sense user will benefit. It’s just the harsh reality of data science. For the OP, and possibly for you, some of the electrical items you have might not be as commonplace, and those will likely require more time to find. I’ll leave you with a famous data science line, which is more appropriate for this company because of their name … “Data science doesn’t make any sense without data.”

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I certainly don’t consider pool ownership and lawn with a lake irrigation pump to be the larger circle in the Venn diagram. I do wish there was a way to single out things we just turned on/off as their own device so we can manually set what it is.

To add to what I just said. I would even take a feature where you can go to the energy graph for the “other devices” and tell Sense what caused a spike or cliff. That way you are actually providing Sense with that information, because right now how are they able to record new devices in their system if users aren’t telling them what’s causing changes in the energy usage.

Hi @chris.angeline.gross - we’ve discussed why we’re not pursuing a manual/collaborative detection methodology at length elsewhere in the forums. I’ve linked a conversation from a thread last week where you can see some of the basic explanations for why this is not a viable option at scale.

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But this argument:

Babies learn spoken language (very similar to what Sense is learning) by hearing lots and lots of speech, under a variety of conditions, not by hearing a single word one time.

Is not true at all. Babies learn by listening and seeing. Right now Sense is just listening, what the OP was asking is to be able to mimic the “seeing” part by telling Sense what it’s listening to is this device, just like how you teach a baby that the sound “cat” makes is the animal you are pointing to or holding.

And obviously I wouldn’t be suggesting that one person telling Sense “this is a pump” should be taken as fact, but if one person tells Sense that the app can remember it (for them) and then it gets recorded in Sense as a possibility, or however else it would use its learning algorithms to hopefully look at other similar readings and see if they follow the same pattern.

Chris,

Ownership of a pool might not be uncommon. I agree, but can you tell me how many different pool pumps are on the market? Do you think that all pool pumps have the same signature? If you have a pool pump that Sense hasn’t seen before do you think it’s just going to magically know what it is? As it’s been discussed many times the electrical signature of variable drive motors and pumps is based on the demand needed so the signature is always changing.

First, you are the OP. Second, while you can use Venn to help you determine logical relationships between two or more sets of items what you are asking to do and what @JustinAtSense is showing you, you can’t do, is assign ground truth. Let me provide you a diagram of a variable speed pump and please tell me where in this diagram you’re going to give truth to the electrical signature.

Do you realize that if everyone who had that diagram picked a different spot on it to say “this is my pool pump”, we would screw a lot of things up.

The statement about babies learning to speak is only used to bring the idea of AI to a level that most non-tech people can understand. AI isn’t anywhere close to a human and I don’t think Sense is being literal in their statement. This is where I bow out.

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I was suggesting the opposite with my Venn diagram analogy. I think you’re getting overly defensive for no reason. I’ve long accepted that it’s just not going to see my pumps, at least not yet.

First, you are the OP

I was referring to the OP in the post that was linked since I was directly responding to the comment about machine learning. And again, we’re going back to variable speed pumps when I’ve already said I have no variable speed pumps. If you’d like I can give you the graph of when my pump turns on every day around 8:30 and it’s a flat line after a 1500 watt jump… a flat line that stays constant all day until it turns off (with jumps as other devices turn on/off). This has been going for almost 6 months - on at 8:30, off at 5:30, and a roughly ~1500 watt usage the entire time. It’s kind of boggling that it cannot seem to learn that in 6 months time, but :man_shrugging:

The statement about babies learning to speak is only used to bring the idea of AI to a level that most non-tech people can understand

It was probably the worst analogy given the circumstances of what that OP was asking for in his post. :smiley:

A better analogy would be: If you stand by a highway with your eyes closed and listen to cars as they drive by, over time you’ll be able to tell the difference between an EV, a small gas car, an SUV, large hauler, etc. Only after you’ve learned those differences can you then start asking someone standing next to you “hey, what brand SUV just drove by?”

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Read more about how babies acquire language. The first 6 months or so is just listening, acquiring recognition of phonemes, not actual words. And language is one of the best analogies because the data and patterns between electrical signals and sounds share so much in common. Both time series waveforms in roughly the same frequency ranges, though home electrical signals have a far broader recognition window.

ps: your analogy is problematic for three reasons - your house is a crowded highway much of the time with many different cars making many different sounds. The “cars” are also traveling at far different rates - with some cars going .5mph and some driving at 250mph. And finally, you are presuming the person listening has already acquired language skills that include that 6 months of basic sound processing when they were a baby. Sense doesn’t have that at the start, but your person listen to cars does.

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I’m not getting dragged into more analogy bs by people that instead of being helpful are just being condescending. Great community!

Moderator setting the example!

@chris.angeline.gross ,
Sorry, you’re right. I just moderated my own comment :wink:

So, can we get back to why a non-variable speed pump could be having difficulties getting detected? It runs 9 hours a day, every day.

The LG refrigerator was already answered, it technically has a variable speed motor. I’m curious about the other major appliances too although they are indeed models from a little over a year ago. The garage opener is probably just rare, I’ve never seen a direct drive until I got this one, plus it also does not run very long although that didn’t stop the Sense from seeing the juicer immediately after I used it and it only runs for 5 seconds at a time.

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@chris.angeline.gross I think this rests on me (and not people that volunteer their time here to answer questions) to add a stickied post to the New User thread that shares examples of previous times this has come up.

On the technical side, I understand frustrations from the people here that have an abundance of knowledge on the subject and have to answer similar questions in relatively high-level language. The subject gets technical very quickly, and there’s no easy response to what sounds like a fair question.
It leads to both sides getting frustrated very quickly. I’m going to do some work here to build out a few bullets that we can direct people towards when this question comes up.

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