Changing circuits loses detection

#1

Can we get an option, either by default or something we can turn on manually, that will allow Sense to detect devices if they change to a different circuit? I recently moved an electric heater to the other side of a bedroom and a blender to a different end of the counter and both detections were lost. The blender came back about 2 weeks later as a new device, but the electric heater is still Unknown although the previous device still shows up as not on since I moved it.

I’m guessing these hit a different breaker and phase when I moved them although they are operating the exact same way. Ideally Sense should be able to handle this, but if the algorithm is purposely not looking for the same patter on the other CT, then having an option for “Mobile” device that we could enable per device so it will look on both CTs may be helpful to prevent these from being lost and extra devices.

3 Likes

#2

Sounds like your heater and blender were probably moved to different phases. Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll pass it on to the rest of the team.

0 Likes

#3

I’d like to see this too. Being able to mark devices as “mobile” so that they can be detected on either leg of the service would be great. It would be okay if the default for mobile was “off” as many devices aren’t used that way. Devices in the power tool category might want to default to having mobile “on” and it could be turned off for large power tools that don’t get moved around.

1 Like

#4

Well, I haven’t changed anything circuit wise but I did have to
replace my month old water heater. Since then, nothing but trouble.
I lost my water heater showing up at all when is was always accurate
before. It was an identical brad and model and the replacement was
also wired identical.

Now some of the other reliable detections are failing to show and grouped
into “other”.
I don’t know if I should wait and see if they get corrected or delete them
and start over.
The lack of instruction or a manual for things of this nature is disappointing.

0 Likes

#5

Sorry, but machine learning, which Sense relies on, is a probabilistic process, which means that there isn’t likely a nice deterministic process you can do to “re-acquire” the devices. My recommendation is to have lots of patience and and wait a couple weeks before you take any drastic action like a delete or reset. Other option - contact support, but they are likely to tell you to wait it out for a bit.

0 Likes

#6

I’ve spoken with support about a similar issue and was surprised
at their lack of answer. The software, algorithms and such are
not developed in house, It’s done somewhere else entirely if I
understood him correctly, It didn’t seem by his answers that he
even understood it completely. Its been many days since he was
going to find the answer and get back to me.
Patience is something you have to have a lot of with this. Not jus
for the learning but for answers too. At least I wasn’t lied to, that is
a plus.

0 Likes

#7

With machine learning, the “algorithms” for deciphering your data are pretty much created by combining your data with feedback on whether your “algorithms” have guessed correctly. Doesn’t sound like it should work, right ? But that’s pretty much the same process that goes on inside your brain as you acquire knowledge… When you are a baby, you just hear a bunch of sounds emanating from peoples mouths. Eventually you begin to recognize spoken words from your parents. And as time goes on, you learn to recognize the same words spoke by different people, then different words spoken by different people… Long process.

If the input data stream from a device changes a slight degree, a la a replacement device with manufacturing variance from the previous one, that can disturb the algorithms that are looking at thousands or even millions of samples per second.

0 Likes

#8

Well put. Another way I think about it is my childrens voices or when they
cried as babies. Whether we were somewhere like a school function or
picking them up from daycare years before in a room with many other children
I recognized them immediately based on the signature of their sounds and voices.

Sense picked up my dryer on the timeline a few minutes ago. Maybe its correcting
itself.

My feeling is that because I have the sense powered by the water heater breaker and
that heater was just replaced, it caused confusion. many people have said it doesn’t matter
about my setup having a double tap but one other has said he had to reset over a similar
situation. I think the sense takes reading from the 240 breaker in addition to the CT clamps.
Being as its on a breaker actually pulling a load, the “noise” has to be different. With 16
detections in less than 2 weeks since install I can’t help but think that I’m doing something
different that is speeding things up.
the user that said it did measure from all four wires confirmed it with tech support.
I will be changing to a dedicated breaker in the future, I’ll find out for sure at that time
and hopefully won’t regret it.

0 Likes

#9

Maybe so but I wouldn’t think so. Sense is using the 240 breaker to read the voltages on both legs to use it for current calculations. I would think the voltage and noise would be the same on the whole breaker rail…?

Hard to say because Sense never says what helps or hurts detections and if install has anything to do with it.

0 Likes

#10

Yes, Sense looks at both total current (the CT clamps) and voltage sensed from some point on the breaker bus and conducted thru 2’ wires to the Sense device. Hard to see how an additional 1.3” length of conductor from the bus to the pickoff would make any difference, but it will be interesting to see what you find out.

0 Likes

#11

I’m a little nervous about making the change so thought I would add the
new dedicated breaker and immediately run around the house cycling
my detected devices to see if they show up properly. If they don’t, change
back to the original configuration immediately.
I don’t think double tapping the breaker is code compliant but someone (wish
I remembered who) responded to another post of mine and suggested wire nuts
to join the water heater and sense with a pigtail wire added from there to the breaker.
If things don’t go well, that I think will be close enough to what I have now.

0 Likes

#12

Correct. Sense is using the bus bar voltages, together with the current clamp currents to calculate power consumption on each leg. Both of the voltages and in particular currents will generally be different, which is why it’s important for the voltage be measured on the same leg as the current. Voltages measured on a shared breaker will be the same as on an unshared breaker. Circuit breaker designs can’t tolerate voltage drops across the breaker contacts.

0 Likes